Ph.D. Thesis Presubmission Criteria
Kangkan Halder
Tuesday, 22 July 2008 15:00 UTC
When and how it can be decided that it is right time to submit the Ph.D. thesis.
a) PI decides
b) Your project is completed
c) You got the work published
d) You finished 5 years in lab
e) You are now the seniormost in lab and already an extended SRF
f) ……
It is an interesting and very real query (trauma for some) to find the answer.. Additionaly, is there a reasonable ‘democratic (PI and student)’ way of achieving it ??
PS: personal experiences are welcomed.
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Replies
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Early morning mail – good morning.
Dear Halder thank you very much for initiating such a discussion but in the field of science you won’t find more people to come sincerly to meet your demand – personal experience.
However I want to enter your arena with a simple but bitter truth for I never write things without the associated nouns and pronouns for in that case it comes out as a story made and phrased out of calculative mindset. Hope you accept and allow me to proceed. waiting for your permission.
Regards
Dr. R. Dayal Yadav
Director – Research
Study Group DIM. IUI -
Dear Dr. Yadav,
You are free to share/comment as you feel is necessary/useful to all. I understand that sharing PERSONAL experiences would have been MORE REALISTIC than discussing a reasonable way to decide/find an optimal solution to the query I raised. However, it is to an individual’s discretion to decide – what they want to share/comment.sincerely,
KH -
Dear KH good morning -
We are Indians and there can’t be a second thought that our nature, attitude and behavior are different from Chinese as well Americans and Japanese. So as our hidden inner feelings that find seldom an expression like the one you have shown here.
I would like to inform firstly that I did my M. Sc in 1983 and it took 11 years thereafter to complete my Ph. D in 1994. While working with Dr. Goverdhan Mehta during 1994 – 1997 as PDF at University of Hyderabad I discovered that I was very good in writing stories. Since then I started writing incidence with names and dates. However, because of some compulsion, I will try to adhere with the minimal norms that have come in my way because of my present position and responsibilty towards the Systems of India. Suffice to say that I have applied for 135 international assignments and 24 openings in India but till date I have failed to succeed. My present assignment is with the Parliament and supreme Court of India wherein we are working on joint vision for Administrative Reforms, Development and Advancement. Your discussion topic is directly related to these three aspects of Indian Democracy. Thus we have taken it seriously. All matters discussed here will be under the lens of CVC and public srutiny. Please allow me to stop here for today.
Regards
Dr. R. Dayal Yadav
Director – Research
Study Group DIM. IUI -
Dear Dr. Yadav,
Thank you very much for your articulated narration. I would also like to thank that an eminent position that you hold has taken it seriously. Hopefully we would have more contributors to the discussion and realise some more facts.Sincerely,
KH -
Dear KH good morning -
Indian system of Administration is opening to 100% transparency and Science Mission in India can’t be an exception. Please consult Law Enforcement Agency of India.
Regards
Dr. R. Dayal Yadav
Director – Research
Study Group DIM. IUI
Operating for joint vision of Parliament and Supreme Court of India. -
In my view research publications are more important than anything else. Even if you submit or get PhD degree without publication in good journal, it have any meaning. Ultimately after PhD you have to search jobs in global market. Depend on field, in our field I believe one should have at least 4 research papers (average impact factor 3.0) as a first author in order to submit PhD thesis.
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I think this doesn’t really matter. You decide, if you are ready to write thesis – you may start. More important is to write your thesis correctly in proper structure and organization.
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Aim of the PhD is to learn how to carry out research, analyze and conclude your experiments. It has more to do with your thinking (development) rather than techniques you employed or time you have spent.
In most of the European countries and Australia time frame is 4 yrs (average). I have seen people completing it in 3 yrs and some people kept on working for 6-7 years. US average is 5.5 years due to compulsory course work. Time is also directly proportional to the type of experiments you perform. Working with primates will take more time as compare to in silico or in vitro experiments.
Publications. I always expect PhD holders (irrespective of the country) to have atleast one first authored paper in a pubmed discoverable journal. With all respect I differ with Prof GPSR who is expecting four first authored papers with some sort of impact factor, which is not possible in all the fields. Impact factor criteria looks good on paper but in reality it is obsolete. I know only one person who had 9 papers (3 first and 6 other) while he was working for PhD in Bioinformatics at MPI Germany. In US you are expected to have first authored papers (with no emphasis on so called impact factor but heavy emphasis on the quality of data and science) but in Europe, (lots of) people do not generally publish before they complete their PhDs. In India, some institutes try to put everything around impact factor without trying to establish the quality of science published in other journals. Most of the times people are hired with nature papers but they fail to produce any other nature paper in their lifetime when they work independently!!!! This should force searching committees to rewrite their scoring sheets.
A good litmus test for your PhD is
1. Ask yourself. Have you actually learnt something or you just performed experiments as directed by your boss. If you have learnt a good amount and you are confident go ahead, submit your thesis. You will be proud of your thesis.
2. Results. Minimum of three result chapters (or equivalent, in case of few Australian univs where they have only one results chapter summarizing all their results). If you have enough quality data (including negative), go ahead and submit.
3. Publications. Minimum of one first authored paper in a decent journal is good. More publications better scope for finding a Postdoc/Job in a decent institute/lab. Some people try to see how many years you have spent and they expect n-1 publications where n is number of years spent, others think 4 first author papers are prerequisite.
4. Project. Projects sometime extend as results drive the future direction of your research. It is a good idea to stop at one point and submit your thesis, while examiners are examining your thesis or you are waiting for your graduations, you can complete your project. If it is really interesting carry on but as a Postdoc. You cannot spend your whole life doing PhD just because Project is becoming interesting and you are getting excellent results for next 20 years!!! At one point you should get your thesis in and proceed on.
5. Seniormost in the lab or SRF. I assume this SRF concept is limited to India. PhD should not be determined by who joined first but who is more capable. The concept of seniority on the basis of age or date of joining is not productive.
If you can talk to your PI when you feel you are ready to submit or you should submit, go ahead and convince him. A good PI will never stop you if he/she thinks you have done significant amount of work. Believe me if PI says go ahead (after carefully reading it), no examiner can find a single significant mistake or shortcoming in your thesis. Any significant changes (obvious and scientific shortcomings) suggested should represent the shortcoming of you and your PI. Remember your PI will keep your thesis in his office for next 50 years!! So he will make it sure that it is of the best quality.
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I think to me, when one is satisfied enough to have done a kind of research that showed the world that it is 50% significant and novel. Perhaps, I may not be the right person to comment in Indian scenario as I did my PhD in Denmark and still waiting for my defense. The PI of course plays an important role. But to me, the student should be satisfied enough what his/her PhD has meant and importantly what excitement it has welcomed for and finally say: “Yes, I ’ve done!”
Coming to the publications, I feel the student should plan in such a way that there are three publications viz one a review explaining challenges in student’s area of research, a methodology article and finally a Fl article what and how novel the research gained from the first two articles.
The above sentences looks paraphernalia and amusing for few but I feel that kind of scenario, we as Indians should adhere, otherwise I ’m afraid there (are, even today!)would be be many students who just consider PhD as a degree, not a thoughtful practice.
Today, having mentored a few students, they feel that PhD should be done soon after bachelors/Master as if it were a taught program. We should shun this practice and allow only students who have goals and zeal to bring novelty.
Remain
Prash
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