Recent replies to "Indian science and indian women--Your views"

Reply from Subhra Priyadarshini

Subhra Priyadarshini — Mon, 24 Mar 2008 09:15:21 -0000

Anil, you might get an idea of what women scientists in the western world feel when I narrate this interesting observation. The first woman to respond to an Indigenus blog written on this theme was from the U.K. and this is what she had to say:

“This does sound like good news. Let’s hope that some of these options spread to other countries, following India’s example!”

Reply from Krushna Mavani

Krushna Mavani — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 05:30:12 -0000

Here is another link for this news : http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/319/5869/1470b

Reply from Krushna Mavani

Krushna Mavani — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 04:07:35 -0000

This is encouraging to the mother scientists. There must be kept a watch and improve the model so as the scientists can do their best and perform better in this NEW model.

Well, to anil, I will say that we always need NOT follow others. I understand your point but I have the following views.

By introducing such models, we may save our trained people and talent from dropping out. Anil said that such models do not exist in other countries and we may weaken our scientists then we can also observed how their mother scientists (who are also trained well in their respective research area) do drop or take a long break but then when they return, they have outdated knowledge. So, if no such model exist in other countries and if they do not do anything, it does not make their mother scientists more competitive. There are many such examples where mothers drop from research in developed countries too and they loose their own talented people.

So, paying attention to such special and natural needs of scientists who are women, may solve some problems and help them to continue their research. Also, let us hope for better and not feel fear in taking such initiatives. We can always improve.

Reply from anil kumar

anil kumar — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 06:39:40 -0000

This is really not a good move. You are making Indian woman scientist weaker and non-competitive. This move will force women scientist to think that they are weak and they need support like this. I don’t think this kind of model is present in other countries. In order to match global competitiveness, we should not differentiate Indian woman from other woman scientists working in other countries.

Reply from Subhra Priyadarshini

Subhra Priyadarshini — Fri, 14 Mar 2008 08:42:37 -0000

Hi Krushna,

Here’s some pre-Holi good news for all of you. Feel free to comment on this here.

Subhra

Reply from Krushna Mavani

Krushna Mavani — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 05:35:26 -0000

So, after this disuccsion, it seems that the following may help.

1. A survey (by interviewing)on women researchers who drop out, this may give a clearer picture.

2. Make the society aware about the research world. Let some discoveries go public (by informing media) and also the interesting stoires about how some discoveres were made or how accidental discoveries are made etc.

3. Tell young girls (starting from schools and colleges) about those women researchers who made significant contributions to the science. Let them know how they crossed the barriers, struggled and achieved (my be by arranging some meetings).

However, a larger number of views (mainly from women researchers)would help to know more!

For me, I realized this problem(few women at postdoc/Prof/top level compared to younger age groups of researchers) because I see less number of women in my own field of research (PHYSICS).

Reply from Krushna Mavani

Krushna Mavani — Mon, 18 Feb 2008 11:16:58 -0000

Well, there is no obvious bias for women anywhere to prove it.

Yes, I agree that we should make aware society about the research world.

Reply from Prithivi Raj.J

Prithivi Raj.J — Sat, 16 Feb 2008 09:38:41 -0000

To put it simple,
The drop out of women may not be regarded as bias because women are not prevented from applying / joining research (by our labs). But if there is a change in their life, they may drop out may be because of the concerned society’s thoughts. So naming this as a bias / discrimination may lead to unnecessary fears among women. So lets just take it as a challenge and try to make the society aware of the excitement and satisfaction in the field of research. If we are able to do it, then more people will also come for research jobs like any other IT /ITES / lecturer / teacher jobs.

Reply from Prithivi Raj.J

Prithivi Raj.J — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 12:38:55 -0000

ya the problem is more serious. Thats what I am saying. Women drop out, surely more than men, but that I think is not because of gender bias. But because of society’s view on research.

Generally people think research jobs doesn’t have a definite work time and one has to work day and night. (But even though most of us do it that way, it is bcoz of interest and not on compulsion) But general people feel it the other way!!!!

See most people dont like research. One needs an All India rank of 50 to get M.Tech. admission (max 40 students / year in each dept) in IISc. but for Ph.D. it is 500. You may know the max. possible admissions in each dept. in IISc (Stipend of 12k) every year. This clearly shows that toppers prefer M.Tech. and not Ph.D. Again the ratio of people who will join Ph.D. will be lesser when compared to those join in PERMANENT jobs.

And as the research jobs are offered in 0.5 to 1 year contract, most people join to run their life till getting a permanent job. I am also the same case. I came to know abt research jobs only after I tasted IT / ITES jobs.

See all here in Nature network must be those who feel research as a life time career option. So these most people who use this as a gap filling option wont come here for discussions. Instead they will be seeing job sites.

Also some might quit feeling ill of their lab environment. I have read (in one of Nature network forum topics)that a famous scientist in India mentioned “senior pressure” is a drawback in Indian science. This leads to early drop outs…

So either to change the mentality of society / common or those who join as a short time career option, we have to make them feel better on research….

See except Abdul Kalam, Madhavan Nair, Baldeev Raj, I hardly knew other scientists (who are alive bcoz I obviously knew people like pascal, einstein, etc) even till I finished my B.Tech. But I knew 100s of cricketers , film stars, politicians. So only if some scientists scientists are published in general mass media (not just in NATURE which I get access only sice 3-4 months) people know that there is a career option called research.

See all people here are those continuing research. I think its better to ask women who dropped out than asking the present researchers!!!!

Reply from Krushna Mavani

Krushna Mavani — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 06:08:34 -0000

Hello Prithivi Raj,

For you question, let me first answer that, if I would believe women cannot takle more demanding research, first of all I would have never started this topic here.

My question is : Why more women reserchers compared to men, drop?? I think that it is because of our social set-up/ environment/ mentality, which we need to change (we have to think HOW). But you said that the gender-bias does not exist! rather you think that men or women, many drop out! If that is true, the problem is more serious.

Reply from Prithivi Raj.J

Prithivi Raj.J — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 14:31:34 -0000

well Krushna Mavani, Do you mean that women drop out because they r not able to tackle the more demanding research? I don’t think so… Actually what I wanted to mention is that (as already many people said:) if one wants to continue he/she will.
Also in present situation even in India women are also expected to work / contribute to the family income. So social “set up” is not a reason. See men who expect a working wife are now more than the otherwise.

Also I strongly believe that research is not at all a fed-up / hell compared to IT / ITES. I had been in both. At least research is more interesting (for self) than these!!!

So to keep it simple, My opinion are:

Research is more motivating than many other jobs (for both man and women).
Mostly men look for a working wife.

But the society really feels that research is hell!!! so after some time (marriage / kids) or so, they drop out.

I think many (including men) enter into research (this includes admission to Ph.D.) as a short term career option. (Obviously bcoz the job is offered only for short time in many cases).
Later as days pass on if the team (especially the seniors at the joining) happens to be good or at least tolerable, we continue with research else there is always an opportunity to be a lecturer with same scale but a very limited time work and no senior domination and above all a permanent job(at least if u r M.Tech. / M.Phil. / Ph.D)!!!!!

So the problem is either in the perception of society / in the seniors / in self.
For the latter cases we cant do anything (atleast we can take a oath that we even not knowingly hurt juniors).
But I think its high time for us to change the perception of the society.

I always keep thinking, if you get a success in research just call for a pres conference and get it published (in dailies / weeklies)with a large size group-photo. See the common man dont know the value of nature / science etc. For him (read a high school student) the cricketers / bollywood stars are the role models. So unless we do some thing to attract them the society always feels that research is hell. See very rare accidents in labs only reach the common man and not our satisfaction or motivation. Only we know the positives of research and the common man knows only the drawbacks of research. That causes the problem. I dont know how many women will be ready to marry me if I say “I am working in a contract research job which is due to end in MARCH. But there is possibility of extension”.

So the problem is more on society’s perception and on the individual (if they have entered with the mind set of Research as a part time career till getting a faculty position). this applies for both men and women.

See a lot of men also drop out and settle as a teacher / lecturer in the colleges near to their home. So I think there is no need to consider this as a discrimination.

Reply from Krushna Mavani

Krushna Mavani — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:39:49 -0000

Well Kavitha, nice to read your message. I agree with you mostly. Women researchers have never waited to let things happen and that is how gender bias is decreased today compared to old days. If you look at the numbers of women researchers who drop, it is a large number.

If we discuss this topic, it certainly does not mean that women are feeling inferior here but as you said, given better environment helps any individual to perform better, so is true for all women researchers.

Hello Prithivi,
Thanks for this post.
I have something to say on your statements.

1. The women researchers drop in larger number after a certain stage and similar is not found in other professions like teaching etc. This is because, perhaps, research is more demanding work compared to those. One has to go a long way to reach higher level and hurdles do come more often at any stage of research, as you know.

2. When you say “women married to a professor / research personnel, if they r performing well, they too continue in research / science!!!!”, you put certain condition for marriage (again to decrease the effect of social parameter). May be it is mostly true because a resercher can understand the problems/life of a researcher.

Reply from Prithivi Raj.J

Prithivi Raj.J — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 05:13:30 -0000

hi,
statement 1:
Do you think women dont continue jobs like teacher / lecturer / (even) IT (if day shift) etc even after marriage!!! So I think social set up is not the matter.

statement 2:
women married to a professor / research personnel, if they r performing well, they too continue in research / science!!!!

If one can accept both the above are true to a greater extent then he / she can fix where is the problem. Hope we should also find solutions and solve the problem.

Reply from Kavitha Thirumurugan

Kavitha Thirumurugan — Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:27:26 -0000

Hi, I am Kavitha from Leeds, UK.
I am a Postdoc researcher for 6 years now.
I do really enjoy my research here. Given the right work and home environment will boost an individual’s outcome. Recently, we published in Nature. Due credits go to the group along with my beautiful structures of myosin.
I have to admit at times i do face the dilemma of balancing work and life. I have to pull all my strings to come and perform what i am expected to do.
No matter a women or men, if they have conscientious and take pride in whatever they do and accomplish, there will reduced gender bias at any level.
Eleanor Roosevelt said ‘No one can make you feel inferior without your consent’
Women have to fight harder to succeed, when the circumstances are not conducive. We can not leave everything to fate and let things happen their own way.
Sometimes, women are to be blamed for their down voyage. Men do not realize what we want beacuse we seldom say what we need. I think nowadays things are changing for good.
But we have to admit there are some arrogant/chauvinistic individuals around us who think women are next to nothing. It might need a group of women to change their attitude. Hard to change the Leopard spots though…....

Reply from Subhra Priyadarshini

Subhra Priyadarshini — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 12:18:55 -0000

Interesting article here

Reply from Krushna Mavani

Krushna Mavani — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 03:11:51 -0000

Hello Subhra,

It is nice to hear about this award for women in science!

Well, yes some changes we will start to see now as some organizations recognize the potential of some talented women in research area and there is a need to motivate them in order to persue their good research work and for junior women researchers, they become examples to follow.

hi Kuljeet, I partially agree with you that one needs determination if there are odds in front. The women who survived long in reserch and doing well are all determined.

But, I think that the large number of women ‘postdocs’ who drop, may not be ‘all’ less determined. We have to accept that our social set up does not favor the career-oriented women and the policies/environment/mentality at many working places are really old and more oriented towards men as their working-force. However, this is my personal belief.

Reply from Kuljeet Sandhu

Kuljeet Sandhu — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:06:21 -0000

I do agree that women do drop from scietific career, but I hope most will agree with the fact that it depends on individual. If you are determined for science, I dont see any reason to drop this and we do see such determined women in our society quite often. One need to be firm on her decision to continue and fight for this!

Reply from Subhra Priyadarshini

Subhra Priyadarshini — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:23:41 -0000

Hi Krushna, Geetha,

Couldn’t wait to share this. Naama Barkai of the Weizman Institute of Science in Rehovot, Israel has been awarded the first-ever FEBS/EMBO Women in Science Award. Naama Barkai receives the 2008 award for her outstanding contribution to the field of systems biology and the mathematical modelling of biological systems. Three cheers!

Reply from Krushna Mavani

Krushna Mavani — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:28:50 -0000

Thank you Subhra, for considering this request. Such events by boost the confidence of young women researchers to persue career ahead.

I read the article mentioned by Geetha, which shows almost alerting numbers of quitting women at postdoc level, who are trained well.

Yes, I agree that these days are better than the past for women researchers, but still there is a lot of scope for improvement in this scenario in India and abroad.

Although time is changing and women are taking active roles in work-force in every field, the policies are old-fashioned to fit women in research, for example: no flexible work-hours or no part-time jobs for re-entering women/mothers in research.

Reply from Subhra Priyadarshini

Subhra Priyadarshini — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 12:31:59 -0000

Geetha Rayasam from Ranbaxy sent in this entry:

I just saw this discussion and I think this is an universal problem, both in developed and developing countries and across all fields. I thought I will just share with you a recent publication of ours (from NIH, USA, when I was doing my post doc there).
The reference is EMBO Reports, Vol8 No 11, 2007, 977.

Regards,
Geetha

P.S: Pl feel free to post your replies here Geetha.