Recent replies to "Why are we falling behind in Science?"

Reply from prathap vp

prathap vp — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 13:06:05 -0000

hi Sunil i too agree with what u say and i like to add some more cause for it.As u said hesitation/feeling like commting mistakes is one of the biggest problem.Along with it,lack of knowledge on how to communicate ideas.Another thing,the person who has an idea is not knowing how to make it known for all but the person knowing how to do it is lack of innovative ideas.But i strongly belives that all indians are born intelligent and each one is having their own field of specilation.I truely belives in Kalam sir word’s that at the time of 2020,we indians will prove to this globe that,we are still achievers.

Reply from jayanta chatterjee

jayanta chatterjee — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 20:18:33 -0000

I invite people to check my blog on education and research career . I’ll appreciate to have your feedback as well.

Reply from Dr.V.N. Sharma

Dr.V.N. Sharma — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 01:33:13 -0000

In addition to the reasons identified the present downtrend is further getting accelerated by the ‘Market Economy’. In place of getting into Advanced studies to further the cause of science the younger generation of scientists are turning towards money making and money accummulation. Students from all disciplines are trying to get into the Computer World or to do Management. Though there is nothing wrong with it the cause of science will continue to suffer.

Reply from jayanta chatterjee

jayanta chatterjee — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 22:42:40 -0000

Indian science is not suffering only from money or number problem but mainly from quality problem. India’s famous institutes are nothing more than teaching institute (be it IISc or IIT). There is hardly any accountability in higher education and research in India these days. The quality and even the quantity of publications from Indian institutes are declining fast (as per published reports). Most of the foreign trained scientists hardly can think about relevant and/or Indian problems (and continue with the problem they once worked abroad long time ago mainly as extension of hands of their bosses there and/or continue imitating the west) or capable of thinking out of the box.
It’s not the higher education or so-called “research” that need immediate fix but the primary and high school education. Indian basic school education is in a pathetic condition, particularly Govt schools on which majority of Indians still depend. All school education in India selectively discards students with original thinking and dedication to knowledge. Unless we fix our base, we can never achieve at the top and will remain the mail supplier of scientific coolies in manpower-starved west. It may be great for economy but surely not good for the society as a whole and science in particular in the long run. Our dream to have knowledge based economy and society will remain a dream in near foreseeable future.

Reply from Vipul Bansal

Vipul Bansal — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:15:39 -0000

Dear Kangkan !

I would probably end up writing a pretty long discussion, so bear with me and please read it. You wont regret after reading it in full.

First of all, thanks for your words of appreciation. It is true that I was a CSIR fellow and had reasonably good publications from NCL during PhD, while using state-of-the-art techniques. Since you have raised this issue now, let me also highlight that this publication record is better or at-least on par with students doing PhD in International Labs (Please dont take me wrong.. I am just trying to explain my point with my own experience and example).
However, this performance of mine raises certain crucial questions –
1) How many of us get an opportunity to publish so profusely or do quality research, and what proportion of us (PhDs in India) perform on-par with International research?... Definitely, the numbers would be too small even to be plotted on a logarithmic scale…
2) If the point 1 is valid, what were the factors that I (and only few more like me) could do so well?...

Before I discuss point 2, let me come back to your view where you said that you were surprised to see such a respose from me against the Indian Science Policy-makers. It is true that I could make such remarks, only because I could see the CSIR system very closely. I had certain previleges while doing my PhD at NCL:

—I was in one of the major CSIR Labs (NCL has produced quite a few number of CSIR Directors, so a PhD student can watch the activities of Policy-makers very closely for 3-4 years, if somebody is really interested)

—My mentor at NCL was one of the best young scientists (Age 45 – Bhatnagar Awardee) of the world at NCL, who used to publish about 40-50 high impact articles annualy [see the numbers – are not they mindblowing: approx. 1 article per week – moreover, this was only with his PhD students, no postdocs and no scientists under him !]

—I could watch the growth and (most importantly) obstacles in the path of my mentor during those 3 years of PhD [Most of us would agree that our peers and seniors are definitely not flattered, when somebody outperforms them – there come obstacles, because those senior colleagues, who are generally Policy-makers start seeing such a growth-pattern as a threat to themselves and they want you not to grow]

—Next comes the most-striking part of this discussion. Wouldn’t you be surprised to know that such a brilliant scientist, who was outperforming in CSIR system at NCL for last 15 years, all of a sudden left NCL and Academia, and moved to Industry? What happened all of a sudden that CSIR and our “Indian-science policy makers” could not retain such a rare talent in Indian Academia? Has anybody ever questioned to these “policy-makers”? Why not? This is the time, when we need to ask questions to our Govt… Whatever Govt. is spending is our money- tax-payers money and we have every right to ask questions (but I feel sorry that we dont do that in India: I must say that this is the only difference in developed countries and India – Liability !.. Nobody feels liable for their actions in India and I am also one among you all !.. But atleast we should try coming up openly…)

—Think for a moment, what would happen to a PhD student, if his mentor leaves the institute, while he has just finished the second year of his PhD…It might provide some relief to the student, if mentor is supporting fully from outside, but mentor ofcouse doesn’t have any more say over Institute’s policies… Therefore, it might give rise to a big malodrama at that institute, and some other scientists might try to get hold of his labs and instruments and they might even restrict the access of those very own instruments to the PhD student, who had previously invested weeks/months to purchase the instruments (alongwith his mentor) and had eventually fallen in love with those instruments, when he used to spend >18 hours a day / 7 days a week with them…Those instruments actually become one’s wife and girlfriends, and one just can’t imagine living without them- Student feels sometime like dead, sometimes cries alone in the bed just for the sake of love for Science and that is the brutal fact.

Now tell me, my dear friend ! Do policy-makers need to change their policies to foster budding Indian Science or not? I have tried to highlight the scenario of Indian science with just single example. But the fact is that many good Scientists have left Indian Academia and NCL in last few years. Shouldn’t policy-makers make it a priority issue to decide.. why? and further nail this problem? Is it less personal money? Is it less-funding to do science? Is it because of no personal-reward system for outperformers? and if such personal-reward systems exist, is it fair enough to be trusted?

Can Indian Academia provide a Research Scientist Position to an immediately passed-out PhD student, who has out-performed the average productivity of that Institute? I guess not… But countries like Australia do, where somebody who got his PhD degree in Nov07 can join here as Research Scientist in Jan08, based on his out-performance..and that’s why our brain is draining out of India…..!!!

Reply from Kangkan Halder

Kangkan Halder — Fri, 28 Dec 2007 09:12:39 -0000

Amit: I fully agree with you. It’s really pity that we (graduate students) are usually gauged by our institutional/PI profile. While in the field of applied research – I personally think that individual scientific temperament/thoughtfulness is the key factor. And it can be easily found by the number of citations of an particular paper/article which has a proof of concept (novel at times) irrespective of the journal.

Reply from Devendra Bajaj

Devendra Bajaj — Thu, 27 Dec 2007 17:07:30 -0000

The point that was made earlier that labs in UK, US have vast majority of Indian scientists is very true. To me it seems like ‘we cannot work under our own roof.’ Also I am highly skeptical about ‘research outsourcing’. Sure there is some work funded by foreign research agencies but the point is what level of work is being outsource. Is it like the IT industry which that the low end (call center/ tech support/ DBMS) jobs? Whereas, all the high end (semiconductor/ microprocessor based) research is either done in US or China.

One of the major problem that I believe is the Industry/Government and University collaboration. We do not have big government funding agencies like the NIH, DOE and NSF. Also look at the industries, we do not have Boeing, NASA, Lockhed Martin etc. I am sure the big players in the Indian industries like Reliance have their own research labs and have minimal relations with the Universities. So where is the competition for funding? You cannot excel in research unless there are scientists competing for money. Publication is also a valid point. Look at the number of papers published by Chinese universities in Nature or Science. Forget Nature and Science just pick up any random international journal and count the number of papers from China and then compare it with that from India. A recent report in Science said that China has climbed to number 3 in national R&D funding (http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/reprint/318/5856/1523.pdf)

Research based education at the school level is important too. In US funding agencies such as the NSF promotes research at the high school level. This is a big nation wide program with billions of dollars spent for helping young kids look at the science from the research perspective.

I think we can find hundreds of points as to why India is not excelling in research. However, the question we should ask is ‘How can we excel?’

Reply from Amit Kumar Singh

Amit Kumar Singh — Thu, 27 Dec 2007 11:50:15 -0000

One of the most common misconceptions..

People think that only big institutions like IITs, IISc or above mentioned institutes can only produce good students..

which is completely wrong.. don’t know when it will change..

Reply from Kangkan Halder

Kangkan Halder — Thu, 27 Dec 2007 08:59:29 -0000

Vipul: Dear friend, I am really surprised to read ur views. From ur publication list, I found that you were a student of NCL, pune and a CSIR fellowship holder. So, I understand that you had been knowing the CSIR quite well. Then isn’t it true that lately (post 1995) the funding is more than generous – given that productivity is shown. Frankly speaking, you have much better publication list than most of us writing in this blog and the instruments that have been used are also state-of-the-art (TEM, flow cytometry, AFM, FTIR, XRD, XPS, etc). Isn’t it?? Moreover, within my institute (IGIB, delhi), I found that many a times there has been unspent fund to be sent back to CSIR. So, I hope and suggest that we (recent students) should no longer BLAME our system for fund scarcity.

regarding the second issue – “young scientists should be given more opportunities to participate in the scientific policies in India” – yes, I firmly agree with you. But can you enlighten couple of ways for doing it. Hope someday a policymaker visit this page and find your suggestion interesting :)

best regards – KH

Reply from Vipul Bansal

Vipul Bansal — Tue, 25 Dec 2007 09:54:57 -0000

What most of us are discussing here are the fundamental differences at the grass-root level. It is true that some of the universities (infact, most of them) in our system are not globally competitive, when it comes to scientific research. But even if we compare globally competitive institutes (for instance best CSIR and DBT labs, including, NCL, CCMB, NCCS), is there fair amount of science going on in these institutes? And, if yes, whether all the scientists geting a fare share, what they should get? Yes, I am voicing most of the young scientists in these institutes- do they get proper funding and research grants, do they get proper share in institutional facilities, or is it that Indian Science has merely become a property of Bureaucrats, siting at the top-level, who decide, who should receive the fundings and who should not? I feel that it is the time, when young scientists should be given more opportunities to participate in the scientific policies in India. We have already missed the Biotech bus & we would definitely never like to miss Nanotech train. Wake up before it is too late !!!

Reply from sumit deswal

sumit deswal — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 23:21:59 -0000

In my openion, contribution from Indian universities is very low towards research. Only few research institutes are doing the quality work, people in common universities still dont know why and how to do research. I, myself when talk to my old classmates who finished their studies from universities but never got a chance for research institutes (like NCBS, CCMB, ICGEB….), feel very uncomfortable in discussion with them because their standard is really low I have to say. People (even proffesors) are just doing their job and students are doing their degrees to get a job. There is no research culture at all. So if we talk about India’s contribution, this contribution should come from all sources, few institutes cant compete with huge number of USA or UK universities.

Reply from Amit Kumar Singh

Amit Kumar Singh — Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:16:29 -0000

Ajit Varki,

Wow.. one of the most impressive personality I heard about..

My boss says he is one of the most intelligent person in science he ever met..

N indeed he is.. and he is Indian..

Reply from Graham Steel

Graham Steel — Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:59:09 -0000

I don’t know how relevant this is to this thread so I’ll let others decide (please don’t shoot the messenger).

Prof Ajit Varki (who’s work I very highly rate) used the following in a Paper which is (the Paper) still one of my favorites.

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind…....

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!
—John Godfrey Saxe

One of the many things that I like about Prof Varki
is how he self archives such a high proportion of his research Papers.

“Sweet Music – Ajit Varki came to the United States to hear 1970’s superbands. He stayed to do super glycobiology research.

According to Derek Toomre of Yale University, Ajit Varki – professor of medicine and cellular and molecular medicine at the University of California, San Diego – came to the United States for the music. “At least that’s what he told us,” says Toomre, Varki’s former graduate student. “He was a top medical student in India and he was drawn here because he liked rock and roll.”

Source

Reply from Vaibhav Garud

Vaibhav Garud — Thu, 20 Dec 2007 10:05:14 -0000

Hi all,

This is the wuestion in every scientist or a young student in the field of Life science.

The main reason being our education system….its just a theory based course, we dont get a good exposure to practicals.

Also I think our institute or universities should carry out their own research give students an opportunity and also the staff should be well trained.

A PhD done professor thinks he is on cloud 9, he cant share knowledge…nor can give good advice.
Common its high time we should have a change all the lazy professors should be thrown out who cant share their knowledge or doin their job for the sake.

I now its easy to say, but this will only help in development.

cheers Vaibhav

Reply from Subhra Priyadarshini

Subhra Priyadarshini — Thu, 20 Dec 2007 06:58:35 -0000

Kangkan: point well taken. I don’t know why despite a sea change in many other things, attitudes are taking their own sweet time to change. One can only hope that better sense prevails.

Amit, Kangkan: This particular discussion brings me to a story about an Indian that Nature has chosen as the ‘newsmaker of the year’. He’s on the Nature cover this time. Perhaps, there are lessons to learn from his leadership and back-patting of juniors. I liked the write-up immensely. You could have a look and be inspired! Or perhaps send the link across to snooty seniors as a camouflaged message!

Pushpa: As I said elsewhere on this network, patriotism can be infectious. Good to know it still stirs up some feelings in young people like you!

Reply from Pushpa Lata

Pushpa Lata — Wed, 19 Dec 2007 09:46:49 -0000

well guys,
i loved that line lagao haath ki sooraj subaha nikala kare….........

Reply from Amit Kumar Singh

Amit Kumar Singh — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:32:34 -0000

So what does the video says..

Tum Chalo to Hindustan Chale..

I love this line..

Lagao haath ke Suraj subaah nikala kare.. hatheliyon meine bhare dhoop ujala kare…

So keep doing some quality work.. world is urs..

N hann.. India is currently 5th largest economy in the world .. wait for another 20 years.. everything gonna be change..

Reply from Amit Kumar Singh

Amit Kumar Singh — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:20:20 -0000

There is no shortage of questions..

Labs in USA/UK/Germany are filled with Indian scientists.. so it doesn’t mean that Indian don’t know what question to ask and how to address a question..

Anyways.. people always talk.. you must watch this video..

India’s New Anthem..

Reply from Kangkan Halder

Kangkan Halder — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 10:21:13 -0000

Dear Shubra: No offense, but I have some reservation regarding your last comment “seniors adored …. questions”. As far as ‘mere questions’ are concerned – its OK, but as soon as u start doing experiments and question the result/hypothesis that ‘seniors’ have in their mind, u r on the other side of the line. Its difficult to put everything here, but its true and is ALSO one of the reasons that we are falling behind in science. In case u r highly productive or think/comment better and faster than your colleagues (and senior too!!), ur shoes are already in trouble. So, apart from the bulleted points suggested by Sunil, I believe that the mentality/attitute of ‘seniors’ needs phenomenal change.

:) KH

Reply from Amit Kumar Singh

Amit Kumar Singh — Mon, 17 Dec 2007 07:31:09 -0000

Dear Subhra:
Its already started. When I was JRF in India.. our institute received huge NSF grant in 2005.. Before that labs in CCMB, ICGBE and other institutes were already funded by international agencies like Welcome Trust and NIH.

And in today’s developed world cost of experiment is so huge that they are already started closing labs. Most important is quality control in which indian IT guys doing really great.. Pharma sector already started moving to india because of low cost… its coming to indian labs also..

I wish I have the money to start my company before the baloon burst.